Select to expand quotesailquik said..
The durability of wave boards in your Tropical island wave sailing and rental bubble is a specific case. Most wave and freeride boards in many other parts of the world have a much easier life and often outlast improvements bought by newer designs. In other words, they are discarded by their owners before they are no longer servicable in favour of a newer, faster, easier, better design. My wave sailing friends here mostly change their boards because they want to try a new design or something different, not because they destroy their boards. There are no reefs around here. 
You are mistaken there. 90% of our gear gets sold into Europe which provides me with a lot of feedback from all these places. Whenever there has been a windy spell in Europe, I get calls and mails from people who have broken their boards and now finally want something more durable. Not everywhere is the quality of waves we have here but there sure is a lot of good jumping to be had in Europe. For example Holland is a tiny country but there are 17 million people living there, all within driving distance from the coast. So besides all freeride and slalom sailors, there are thousands of wave sailors and if your work allows you to, you can get over 100 sessions per year. And then you have Germany, France, Belgium, UK, Italy, Spain, Scandinavia, that is around 300 million people with a lot of coast. And people also travel.
For the rest I agree with what you said.
great to see JP making inroads into more sustainable boards. notice their latest range includes rPET sandwich and paulownia veneer.
also notice they are using rPET stringers and parabolic stringers on their wave boards.
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..
did you get a chance to listen to the Sven interview on windsurfing TV. he talks specifically about eco branding and what starboard are doing. he acknowledges the issues with eco construction and identifies past technical problems and goes on to talk about how he has had to accept some of the waste and how he has offset that in his personal life and at starboard as a business.
Hmmm in the early 2000s there was a brand making boards with Dyneema. But whenever I saw such a board in half, I didnt see any Dyneema. I was probably naiv to write an email to the boss to say that if they wanted to I could explain how to use it better and that with a bit of effort, boards could last twice as long. I dont have the email anymore but what he wrote back was something that they had to look at it from a commercial POV to make a living and they were designing boards to last for a few years for the average windsurfer. And that guy now claims he is feeling guilty?? Come on. You should know better as well. The world is full of companies like that. Mobile phones are designed that with each software update it becomes a little slower so that in the end you buy a new one, even if the hardware still is fine, etc etc.
At the moment, the properties of "BIO" materials are still not better for the environment. PET sandwich foam is much softer and the cells are much bigger so it absorbs a lot more resin. This can easily be tested in a laboratory and it is pointless (for the environment) to produce high performance gear from it which is going to last a lot less long. Maybe one day we?ll get laws forcing the industry to make boards that can be recycled or will need to last a lot longer.
And before Duzzi starts complaining again: I do not need to make promotion here and secondly, every one can see where it is coming from and make up their own mind. We have a waiting list which is increasing as it is. If I get PWA riders asking for sponsorship I turn them down. Sponsoring someone with gear is not so expensive, after a few years we can sell it on for cost price. But they also want to be paid for their travels and expenses and there is no point to do that. We cant make more boards than we do now. If the PWA would come with a rule that riders are only allowed say 2 boards and 5 sails for the whole competition season, including training and freesailing and put a penalty on swapping boards (or sails), that would become a lot more interesting. That is a situation what most end users have to deal with. Even a full commercial circus like F1 is doing it. And it is dead easy to do and for sure will have a positive effect on the environment. But they are not doing it. If the person mentioned above would want to do it, wouldnt you think he would be able to push it through even if the others still wouldnt want to? If a board factory has pretty much a monopoly position and controls most of the windsurfing industry is not a good situation for windsurfing as a sport.
seems you've got some issue when it comes to starboard and cobra.
additionally with bio products there is a global rating system built around certification.
so putting that aside, lets be real clear.
your boards are probably the least eco boards on the planet. so probably best to not through stones at others.
claiming your boards last longer does not make them any more eco than another. there is a global rating system and your boards wouldn't even be let in the room to be reviewed, because. again. there is absolutely nothing eco about them.
unless you can actually add to the eco part of the thread why bother posting further.
is it possible you could start an i hate starboard and no other boards are as good as mine thread in the general forum to pick up from here.
some further topics for you to educate yourself with bourke.
Eco-labelling | UNEP - UN Environment Programme.
The ECOBOARD Project - A program by Sustainable Surf
Been reading through this thread, I have to agree with Bourke, a product that is considerably more durable has to be more eco friendly in the long run when you consider not only the use of a few "eco" materials but all the inputs in a products lifecycle.
You might not be able to "virtue signal" in your marketing but the reality is if your product is still in use 20 years later that has to be better than an "eco" one that is in land fill after only a few years.
if you can build something as durable as the best but using eco products than you really do have an eco board.
concrete is high in durability and it is one of the least eco friendly building materials around.
eco means sustainable. nothing in bourkes boards is sustainable. eco also talks to low footprint life cycle. nothing in bourkes boards has a low footprint. eco also refers to biodegradable. nothing in bourkes boards is biodegradable.
20 years is nothing. how many windsurfer one designs went into land fill around the world and they are bullet proof.
in the context of a board eco friendly can also be defined as below.
A measurably reduced carbon footprint
Renewable, recycled and/or up-cycled material inputs
Uses materials and processes that reduce toxicity during manufacturing
none of the above points can be applied to witchcraft boards. it's pretty poor form to throw stones at other manufacturers on this topic when those other manufacturers are much further down the road of producing iso and eco rated equipment
I just watched the Starboard guy interview and at 1:20:50 he agreed with Witchcraft that definitely the longest lasting board is the best for the environment . It makes sense to me .
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..
20 years is nothing. how many windsurfer one designs went into land fill around the world and they are bullet proof.
Hardly the fault of a manufacturer if a customer choose's to dispose out their perfectly functional product is it.
Select to expand quoteImax1 said..
I just watched the Starboard guy interview and at 1:20:50 he agreed with Witchcraft that definitely the longest lasting board is the best for the environment . It makes sense to me .
you have really cherry picked. prior to that he says that manufacturers using single use plastic should be banned from events. he also says that 10x carbon neutral is his ambition.
Select to expand quotecammd said..Gestalt said..
20 years is nothing. how many windsurfer one designs went into land fill around the world and they are bullet proof.
Hardly the fault of a manufacturer if a customer choose's to dispose out their perfectly functional product is it.
oh, so it's not me it's them..hey lets just keep selling coal. overfishing,.... as long as we're not using it all is ok. (sarcasm)
you guys can argue about this all you want but the reality is that eco friendly products are not scored on longevity.
no one can guarantee the longevity of a product and there is no point destroying the planet to build a product that lasts a long time.
long and short there are international iso's around this stuff.
nuclear energy lasts a long time... hows that working out for the Japanese.
to get this thread back on track this is the current accepted industry guideline for determining "eco"
A measurably reduced carbon footprint.
Renewable, recycled and/or up-cycled material inputs.
Uses materials and processes that reduce toxicity during manufacturing
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..Imax1 said..
I just watched the Starboard guy interview and at 1:20:50 he agreed with Witchcraft that definitely the longest lasting board is the best for the environment . It makes sense to me .
you have really cherry picked. prior to that he says that manufacturers using single use plastic should be banned from events. he also says that 10x carbon neutral is his ambition.
I agree about the use of single use plastics and the planting of trees to offset carbon footprint . I suppose if you buy boards or board building products , it is better from a company that plants trees , than one that doesn't .
The way I see it , If Starboard was to make a longer lasting board , how could that not be better eco wise ? I understand that there are a lot of old , still functioning plastic boards from the 90s and are out of date , that got dumped at the tip , but with newer boards id say most boards that go to the tip are totally stuffed . Because these boards are only a few years old I would think they would still be ridden if they weren't at the tip , reducing the necessity for as many new boards . The way I see eco in regards to windsurf boards is , and the same in general , reusing is better than reducing or recycling.
Nope your wrong Imax - Reusing is not an acceptable industry guideline for determining eco
Select to expand quoteImax1 said..Gestalt said..Imax1 said..
I just watched the Starboard guy interview and at 1:20:50 he agreed with Witchcraft that definitely the longest lasting board is the best for the environment . It makes sense to me .
you have really cherry picked. prior to that he says that manufacturers using single use plastic should be banned from events. he also says that 10x carbon neutral is his ambition.
I agree about the use of single use plastics and the planting of trees to offset carbon footprint . I suppose if you buy boards or board building products , it is better from a company that plants trees , than one that doesn't .
The way I see it , If Starboard was to make a longer lasting board , how could that not be better eco wise ? I understand that there are a lot of old , still functioning plastic boards from the 90s and are out of date , that got dumped at the tip , but with newer boards id say most boards that go to the tip are totally stuffed . Because these boards are only a few years old I would think they would still be ridden if they weren't at the tip , reducing the necessity for as many new boards . The way I see eco in regards to windsurf boards is , and the same in general , reusing is better than reducing or recycling.
i have no objection to boards being made longer lasting, personally i think it's pretty disappointing that someone can spend 3k+ on a board that falls apart after 12 months. but we can't define environmentally friendly by that. because at some point the board is in landfill and the board is made from finite resources.
we could choose to fix the broken board.
or
if the board was made from 100% renewable and biodegradable materials the board is carbon neutral anyways.
we all reuse, repair and recycle. but truth is that's an old mentality applied to objects made from non renewable materials. when people talk of carbon neutral or zero footprint it is a cradle to grave analysis and includes every stage including use and end of life. it's complex.
biodegradable 100% bio epoxy has been developed it is just not commercially available yet.
for now we can either give up, take bourkes approach that it's all bull**** or we can actually try and do something positive. but lets not confuse someones personal pursuit of indestructability that leads to marketing with people actually trying to make a difference to the world.
we haven't even touched on how toxic some of these non eco materials are. i mean **** i'm wearing rubber gloves and respirators with some of the stuff i'm building boards from.
Select to expand quotecammd said..
Nope your wrong Imax - Reusing is not an acceptable industry guideline for determining eco
maybe read what i posted 3 times previously. you gotta read it and understand it to enjoy a really good conversation.
Renewable, recycled and/or up-cycled material inputs.
Eco-labelling | UNEP - UN Environment Programme.
The ECOBOARD Project - A program by Sustainable Surf
If you're that worried whether a board is eco friendly or not do the environment a favour and stop windsurfing,sup,surfing.
Select to expand quotechoco said..
If you're that worried whether a board is eco friendly or not do the environment a favour and stop windsurfing,sup,surfing.
if you don;t care then why bother even posting here. what have you done.
me personally i've done a lot and have lots more to do. this thread is an example.
Select to expand quotecammd said..
Nope your wrong Imax - Reusing is not an acceptable industry guideline for determining eco
I get what your saying , I'm just thinking that a longer lasting board is better for the environment that a short lasting one . We're going around in circles . I'm out.
Select to expand quoteImax1 said..cammd said..
Nope your wrong Imax - Reusing is not an acceptable industry guideline for determining eco
I get what your saying , I'm just thinking that a longer lasting board is better for the environment that a short lasting one . We're going around in circles . I'm out.
yep i'm out too.
i'll just get on with trying to build a board and leave it with this quote from a great article. "The perils of short-termism: Civilisation's greatest threat"
the paper. Long-term Trajectories of Human Civilisation, attempts to "formalise a scientific and ethical field of study" for thousands of years hence. As they write: "To restrict attention to near-term decades may be akin to the drunk searching for his keys under the streetlight: it may be where empirical study is more robust, but the important part lies elsewhere."
While I absolutely applaud your zeal and drive, I would say that there are different ways to skin a cat.
Bouke is coming from a 'performance vs functionality' point of view. If his boards didn't sell, he would not have a business. I think after Patrik's honeycomb (Airinside) boards, his boards are leading edge in terms of eco credentials as you have decades of performance. I have a 73litre HDD board form 2004 custom built by Bouke, and it is still in use when the conditions dictate.
Having built circa 20+ eco boards since 2007, I am of the view Bouke is entitled to his position.
If I had built one of his HDD boards, and I continued to like the shape, I would still have a functional performance board today that would have meant all my other experiments would have been redundant.
I have thrown away dozens of eco boards that I was less than happy with.
I have built boards like Grant Newby builds surfboards.
I have built boards full sandwich boards using flax and Amorim's Corecork NL10 and NL20.
I have built boards with recycled PET foam called Armacell.
I have built a Balsa board.
I have used high bioderived resin from a company in Cornwall with 99% 'cracked' linseed oil with a UV catalyser.
With all of these there was always a compromise, and that compromise was performance.
I couldn't get the weight below 9.5kgs and have a board that didn't fall to pieces in a session or two.
My conclusion is that you have to be realistic, if you want performance then a standard glass sandwich board is a good compromise.
I have decided that the eco way for me to go is to responsibly source materials, so I work with local companies and repurpose their waste materials - I.e. reclaimed, offcuts, overstock, and stuff destined for landfill. It is cheap for me - storage is the big issue, and it reduces the materials headed for landfill or incineration as it is repurposed. I am lucky that where I live there are several large composite manufacturers that are looking to work with local 'artists' to repurpose their waste. And it works, I now have boards that are pretty OK in terms of performance - I am an amateur after all - and the boards are more environmentally friendly than something coming out of Cobra/Jinli or a.n.other.
In my opinion at the moment bioderived materials do not increase the eco credentials of a board.
What would be good is a method of resin reclamation, cloth reclamation, sandwich reclamation, and polystyrene core recycling. As this would sort out the end of life of the boards. But I think this is some way off.
Select to expand quotecammd said..Gestalt said..
20 years is nothing. how many windsurfer one designs went into land fill around the world and they are bullet proof.
Hardly the fault of a manufacturer if a customer choose's to dispose out their perfectly functional product is it.
Beg to differ, computer mobs like microsoft & apple phone & TV companies like samsung or LG build their buisness model on people disposing of older perfectly functioning gear. They are completely to blame for a rampant consumerism by drip feeding improvements one model at a time, they are some of the worst eco bandits arround.
Gestalt, yes its great to build ECO. Surely LONGEVITY must also be considered in the equation.
Great also to be aware of ones carbon footprint.
But I'm sure there are BETTER more beneficial/productive ways to reduce carbon footprint.
Quit being a consumer to major companies business models. There is so much guff that we are all told we MUST have to survive. But ya don't really.
Wanna really reduce the carbon footprint of day to day life?
LIVE OFF GRID. 
So many carbon savings to be made on ALL levels...
Seriously... Stop n think about the entire equation.
Select to expand quotepeterowensbabs said..cammd said..Gestalt said..
20 years is nothing. how many windsurfer one designs went into land fill around the world and they are bullet proof.
Hardly the fault of a manufacturer if a customer choose's to dispose out their perfectly functional product is it.
Beg to differ, computer mobs like microsoft & apple phone & TV companies like samsung or LG build their buisness model on people disposing of older perfectly functioning gear. They are completely to blame for a rampant consumerism by drip feeding improvements one model at a time, they are some of the worst eco bandits arround.
I disagree with the notion that someone else is completely to blame, we each make our own choices. attempting to "completely blame" others for ones personal choices is a cop out.
Building a brand new board from eco products has a greater carbon footprint then using one that already exists. That's pretty plain to see, that's why I think bourke presented a good argument about durability being a good environmental outcome
My Original Chakra is holding up . Series 1.
i never thought about the most impact friendly impact , is also the best longest lasting. But it doesn't help the economy and a throw away world.
if Bouke has a problem with Cobra builds, he has different standards.
I see he has entered in a realative reasonable,so far till me, discussion. I see little impact on windsurf boards to the environmental impact, except the physical bulildings.
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..
concrete is high in durability and it is one of the least eco friendly building materials around.
eco means sustainable. nothing in bourkes boards is sustainable. eco also talks to low footprint life cycle. nothing in bourkes boards has a low footprint. eco also refers to biodegradable. nothing in bourkes boards is biodegradable.
20 years is nothing. how many windsurfer one designs went into land fill around the world and they are bullet proof.
in the context of a board eco friendly can also be defined as below.
A measurably reduced carbon footprint
Renewable, recycled and/or up-cycled material inputs
Uses materials and processes that reduce toxicity during manufacturing
none of the above points can be applied to witchcraft boards. it's pretty poor form to throw stones at other manufacturers on this topic when those other manufacturers are much further down the road of producing iso and eco rated equipment
I agree with you that boards are not environmentally friendly. But so is nearly everything we do. I also do not call it that, I think it is misleading. That is why I say they are the least damaging for the environment. Which at the moment simply is the best we can do without going back to the stone age. Windmills and solar panels still have to be made and transported as well. An airplane made from carbon fibre is more fuel economic than one made of aluminium, so what is better then? And ships are by far the worst. I have seen designs of freight ships using wind power that would do a lot more than the whole windsurf industry together. But that should not stop the industry from doing their part. The tree planting thing is just marketing in my opinion. Off course planting trees is good. But it will be added on the price. What if someone wants to save that money to invest in solarpanels? Or planting his own trees for that matter?
Even you are still using recycled EPS and many other non sustainable stuff, including the transport to get these materials. So if your board lasts as long as a "normal" production board from say Cobra (where 90% of windsurf boards are made?) and is of the same weight, you are only allowed to use 25% non sustainable material compared to a board that lasts 4 times as long as a normal production board. Can you do that? I doubt that very much. And if you cant you are the one that should not throw stones. And certainly not till you have actually PROVEN you can do it. I am pretty sure that with todays available "ECO" materials, if it is the same weight, it will not last by far as long as even a normal board. Or if it does it will be a LOT heavier. Even if you personally would accept that weight penalty, it would be unsellable unless the competition (is forced to) does the same and it may stop many people going windsurfing at all. In the end maybe that is where we will have to end up any way to "save the planet" or better said: save humanity. But that is something we will have to do collectively. Some will have to lead for sure but those will have to make sure others will follow. That is why I was saying such a rule for the PWA would be good to start with. Customers can push brands to follow. If Starboard really thinks it is better and performance and durability is the same, why still offer normal made boards? Now for sure that is +90% of their business. And the "ECO" offering is marketing.
The same for these "ECO" labels for surfboards. I had a look into that a while ago. As long as a part of such boards is still made with non-sustainable materials, longevity should be taken into account. And they dont. If you use an X% of "BIO" materials, you get the label, if it falls apart many times faster or not. So it is marketing. At the moment I have a 9 foot long board in for a small repair which is 23 years old, weighs 5.3kgs and shows no sign of fatigue.
There is a photo that circulated the internet, since claimed to be wrongly interpreted.
of a electric car, out of juice, being recharged by a gasoline generator, towed by a diesel van.
recycling is probably the best we can hope for. All those batteries find a use for them.
Actually I know how to a board as well.
you are beyond irrationally.
do you actually read and comprehend
is English your first language?
duzzi?
Select to expand quoteBouke-Witchcraft said..
Hmmm in the early 2000s there was a brand making boards with Dyneema. But whenever I saw such a board in half, I didnt see any Dyneema. ...
And before Duzzi starts complaining again: I do not need to make promotion here and secondly, every one can see where it is coming from and make up their own mind. We have a waiting list which is increasing as it is. If I get PWA riders asking for sponsorship I turn them down.
Good, there is a difference between a forum and advertisement, and if it takes complaining to stop your not so subtle advertisement so be it. If you could also stop the refrain that you are the only person on the planet who knows how to build a board and the boasting and especially your bad mouthing of other builders it would be great.
Select to expand quoteduzzi said..Bouke-Witchcraft said..
Hmmm in the early 2000s there was a brand making boards with Dyneema. But whenever I saw such a board in half, I didnt see any Dyneema. ...
And before Duzzi starts complaining again: I do not need to make promotion here and secondly, every one can see where it is coming from and make up their own mind. We have a waiting list which is increasing as it is. If I get PWA riders asking for sponsorship I turn them down.
Good, there is a difference between a forum and advertisement, and if it takes complaining to stop your not so subtle advertisement so be it. If you could also stop the refrain that you are the only person on the planet who knows how to build a board and the boasting and especially your bad mouthing of other builders it would be great.
So in your opinion, who is the best? With best meaning least damaging for the environment. Just because Witchcraft is not in magazines or the PWA, doesnt mean anything, apart from that it doesnt seem to fit in your picture. I had a call yesterday from a customer from Holland about his new board. He said that in Wijk aan Zee, next to Amsterdam, one of the most popular wave spots in Europe (or the world) with on good days over 300 people out. They also go there from Germany. Germany, France or the UK alone are bigger windsurf markets than the entire USA. And Holland, as small as it is, is close behind. It is a wind swell spot with, next to the Amsterdam canal, a break water going out to sea stopping the current and cleaning up the waves but you need minimum 25 knots to get decent waves unless there is a rare swell coming in from the north. He said that every 4th board on the water is a Witchcraft. Some of them are 15 years or older. In other spots in Holland, Belgium or France it is a similar story. So in your opinion, is the biggest brand who produces the most boards or who has the most boards on the water? I can give you his contact if you want.
