2024 Olympics

Do you think Starboard will discount the iFoil so it is more reasonably priced to encourage take up in Australia and NZ ? This will create immediate market exposure for the product which will augur well for future growth. If Antonio Cozzolino is reading this please reply and advise if there are any special deals being offered. In my opinion it should be priced at the same price as the Glide to encourage take up by new entrants and in Australia/NZ since this will facilitate adoption in clubs. I think the IMCO was better priced and that is why it was popular. An iFoil for the price of the RSX will not work at all. One design fleets should be offered as cheap as is practicable and I believe cost should have received more attention from the bidders and in the evaluation.

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RichardG said..

CJW. The foil racing interests many. How big are the fleets you are racing in ? Are they one design ? Are you racing out of a yacht club or sailing club? How frequently do you race ? How long are the races ? What wind strengths are you racing in ? What are the weights of the 3 top places ? What are the gaps between sailors? Thanks.

There have been two national titles so far and we're in the 3rd year of a NSW state series which is run along side the Formula class, most are slowly converting to foil however Generally we get around 20 or so entrants at the state series over Formula and foil. In the first two seasons it was heavily swayed towards Formula with only 6 or so foils at each round, but as the class has stabilised somewhat this season it has swung the other way; I think we had 13 foils at the first round this season from memory?

Because the class is so new and development has been so fast things were a bit all over the place for the first 2 seasons. People were working out what worked and what they could use, old formula boards, formula sails, what foils etc. In the last 6 months or so though the development has really stabilised and personally I think the gains going forward now will be much smaller. All of the gear over a wide range of manufactures is very very close in performance, you just have to look at the PWA to see that....PWA is currently driving all of the development really. If you buy any race foil from any of the big players, any race rig and any foil board, or use a formula board (which we allow in Aus) you will have a competitive setup.

Courses are windward/leeward, usually about 1 nautical mile top to bottom, two laps. First foil usually finises in 16-18 minutes. We aim for short, sharp races. Because the the speeds are so high the gaps can look massive.....however actual time wise are they much bigger than say in a raceboard fleet I don't know? It's a highly technical class though and the speed differential between someone who has a high skill level and their gear tuned up to perfection and someone who doesn't can be big. I don't think the differential would typically be so big in say raceboards....but i'm guessing a bit there.

In the NSW series I would say it has to be a minimum of 10kts before we race as we have to cover the skill level of the entire fleet. Some could probably race in 6 kts but the other problem with 6kts is you get lulls of 4 kts and that is difficult....you can foil through it for a bit but you have zero height and won't get going again. Personally by 10 kts i'm fully powered and motoring. We race up to 30kts+...if people are still getting around the course, it's on. The first Nationals the average wind strength was probably 25kts.

I'm 65-70kg, use a starboard race foil this season (used an F4 I highly modified last season, thread on here somewhere), Severne HG2 8.0 and 9.0 and a modified JP135 to PWA specs, IE 91mm wide and parallel rails. The great thing about foiling is the range of competitive weights seems to be big. I reckon anywhere from 65-90kg is competitive as in our series (basically PWA rules) you can just tune your gear accordingly. This is the one issue I see with the ifoil, being a one design, one sail setup; there will be an optimum weight range. Personally I think they should have had say an 7,8,9,10 sail sizes and you can register 2 for season, something like that. Keeps the costs somewhat down but still allows gear selection for your size. It makes a big difference. At my weight i'm often 1m, sometimes 2m less in sail size than the big guys but the speeds are literally identical, that is not possible in normal displacement/planing sailing as the more power you can hold, typically, the faster you go. Because of the drag profile of a foil you can have all the power you want....you're not going much faster, but up to that point things are very even. Trade a bit of power in the rig, for a bit less drag in the rig....it all even out very nicely....it's quite amazing.

I come from waves and freestyle (still do both) but i'd never raced windsurfers before; I used to race dinghy's and Catamarans at a National level when I was younger. Raceboards don't interest me and I'd tried Formula once but unless you were 6ft+ and 90kg you had no hope, it's different on the foil, us light weights can be competitive, and the heavier guys alike and that's a big thing. It's a fantastic style of racing and I think the Olympics will be better for it. It's also way easier on the body than formula and raceboards, once you're over the 'scared of it' factor which seems to put some people off. I won't sugar coat it though the learning curve to get to the front of the fleet is high but that's the same with anything and this is windsurfing, everyone is willing to help.

TLDR; racing foils is bawse, try it.

You would have been a good Raceboard sailor.

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AUS 814 said..

windsufering said..

CJW said..

windsufering said..

It's what people want , The kites are more tactical now LOL

Bang'n the corners, it's the foiling way Also consider we do 16-18+ knots UPWIND, think about it. Given you've probably never sailed let alone raced a foil you have zero comprehension of what tactical options are involved, I reckon stick to sailing SUPS with 40 year old rigs ^_^

Please tell me what the tactics are, I hope it's more than staying on the foils ?
i will be honest with you I have never seen a foil race !
please tell me where the large fleets are, edit fleets are (more than 3)

Ever heard of you tube , perhaps a look for foil racing, it's getting embarrassing

LOL the sad thing is I have to watch you tube to see a wind foil race !

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jusavina said..
I'm waiting for the RS:X LT to be released in 20 years.

No need to wait 20 years here is it, no footstraps, cut down fin and jammed up mast track.

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CJW said..

This is the one issue I see with the ifoil, being a one design, one sail setup; there will be an optimum weight range. Personally I think they should have had say an 7,8,9,10 sail sizes and you can register 2 for season, something like that. Keeps the costs somewhat down but still allows gear selection for your size. It makes a big difference.

Good post, but there's a major problem with selecting a limited number of sails like that - it means that the person who guesses right will have a big advantage and considering that in an Olympic class each year may have a bunch of selection regattas in places like Keil, Weymouth, Miami and Poland, selecting the right sails may pretty much get down to dumb luck or which Olympic squad can send someone over to get weather information.

Imagine if you were winning every regatta in a hugely expensive multi-year Olympic selection campaign, and in the last event there were freak winds or the race committee had to move the course so you didn't have a sail that would let you around the course but the guy who ran last in every other regatta did, and therefore got selection. Same with the Olympics - imagine if the guy from Outer Uzbekistan was the only guy who registered a 7 and 8, it blew like stink, and they won gold after never finishing on the same lap at any other event.

The US Tornado team basically made a similar gamble with sails in Beijing, and the class very quickly realised that winning an Olympic medal should not get down to gambles like that.

I like foiling but we had an LT Sunday club race yesterday with 11 LT sailors on the Swan River in variable winds well below 10 knots with many holes and wind shifts. It was one of the lightest days and the LTs in those conditions we were able to sail faster than the foiling Moths in particular upwind in the lighter stuff. The one windfoiler who joined us for the race retired. I can't see the iFoil developing local fleets in WA given the price is now around or approaching close to the price of a foiling Moth secondhand. I don't find foiling is viable for me at winds below 10 knots and I would not upgrade my current foil gear to the iFoil at the prices quoted similar to the RSX. I believe there is an issue here and an opportunity has been missed but I won't be concerned since the LT is where the windsurfing fleet sailing is going in Australia in sailing clubs.

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Paducah said..
Been off for a few days. Glad to find out that upwind is just "banging the lines."

Yeah, if someone could be so nice as to mark exactly where that spot is, that would be nice. Actually, you have to bang two of them unless you get salty and try to port tack the fleet at the start. Otherwise, I'll just be headed perpendicular to the proper direction at 9 m/s (17 kts). Or worse, tack short and have to throw in a couple of extra tacks while the fleet has rounded and traveling downwind at 13 m/s.

It's interesting, though, to see that people like foiling Moth and A Class sailors have repeatedly said that a craft that loses less speed in tacks is more tactical. Some have said that foiling Moths are more tactical than the older non-foiling Moths for that reason. And people like a World Cup champ and IMCO Olympian told me that the RSX is more tactical than a Raceboard because it tacks faster. Like the Moth, A Class and Waszp sailors, they had no reason to be biased when they said such things. After all, in a slow boat you lose when you get the layline wrong too, and you also have to judge a bunch of other lines when working the small shifts.

Personally, having sailed some "corner banging" classes and some slower faster-tacking classes, I certainly find the latter put more emphasis on tactics and less emphasis on the ability to get more speed out of something that's already going really fast. The latter is, to me, a much under-rated skill and the former is often over-rated, but they are different skills.

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duzzi said..

CJW said..
... use a starboard race foil this season (used an F4 I highly modified last season, thread on here somewhere), Severne HG2 8.0 and 9.0 and a modified JP135 to PWA specs, IE 91mm wide and parallel rails ...

Out of curiosity: how did you go to modify the outline of the JP 135? I have been thinking to do the same on a different board, but always stopped because seemed too much of an operation ...

I basically rebuilt the whole side of the board; carbon, foam, new footstrap inserts etc, etc, by no means a trivial exercise, I just did it because I like mucking around with things, and because I could.

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Chris 249 said..

Good post, but there's a major problem with selecting a limited number of sails like that - it means that the person who guesses right will have a big advantage and considering that in an Olympic class each year may have a bunch of selection regattas in places like Keil, Weymouth, Miami and Poland, selecting the right sails may pretty much get down to dumb luck or which Olympic squad can send someone over to get weather information.

Imagine if you were winning every regatta in a hugely expensive multi-year Olympic selection campaign, and in the last event there were freak winds or the race committee had to move the course so you didn't have a sail that would let you around the course but the guy who ran last in every other regatta did, and therefore got selection. Same with the Olympics - imagine if the guy from Outer Uzbekistan was the only guy who registered a 7 and 8, it blew like stink, and they won gold after never finishing on the same lap at any other event.

The US Tornado team basically made a similar gamble with sails in Beijing, and the class very quickly realised that winning an Olympic medal should not get down to gambles like that.

I agree it's a problem but without something like this....or just allowing 2 rigs there will be a fairly specific weight range that will be on average the most competitive; With a 9.0 I reckon it will be somewhere around 70-75kg... I guess though that's one design sailing generally. All I know is, with the PWA rules as they currently sit, the competitive weight range is probably 80+-15kg, that's pretty big. Yeah there are outliers, IE super marginal conditions where the fly weights use a 10.0 and the big guys struggle, and the opposite, but realistically racing doesn't happen in those super marginal conditions.

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Moving on to more general comments in the thread; Regarding banging the corners, obviously my comment was tongue in cheek but sometimes it may in fact be the fastest way up/down the course, nothing wrong with that right? Why is tacking this big tactical gem? Surely picking the best pressure/shifts is the name of the game? The biggest thing in any foiling class is staying where the pressure is because the gains from a bit more pressure can be massive, particularly in marginal conditions. You find yourself planning a lot further ahead than in slower classes because you have to decide quite early where you want to be, when, and why. Downwind sailing is also very different particularly in light conditions, say 10-14kts, as your VMG is much faster than the actual windspeed, so you're looking for wind ahead of you going downwind.

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The wind strength thing is also apt. Foiling classes are really not fast until say 12kts, under that most cats and most fast monos would probably smoke use. The problem is, in 8 kts, we sail upwind and 14-15kts, that's huge apparent wind, in not much wind, so the angles are horrific, moths have the same problem. Once 12kts, though we're gone. I've raced moths a bit in those marginal 8-12kt conditions are we're faster. They can't foil tack super consistently in those conditions and that hurts them badly as they can't get up on the foils as quick as we can. They tend to sail a bit higher and slower in those conditions as they can trim up their foils for bulk lift on the fly and we are fairly limited in what we can do in that regard.

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And windsurfering why continue with the negaitve attitude? It's in the olympics, deal with it yeah? You don't see most of us trolling the LT thread with inane drivel. You stated before you've never even seen a foil race and apparently have no interest in it, so why do you even care? This thread going forward is more about why happens now, how will this progress etc. I mean by all means keep talking **** if you want to but it's probably not the most productive use of your time, no?

How many iFoils have been sold to date globally ?

^ Thanks that's great

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RichardG said..



I am excited about the Olympic iFoil but not the pricing. You would think they could offer these items much cheaper.... they will be last years , obsolete gear in a year from now when they become available in WA for example... Olympic iFoil might cost more than the 2021 top of the line open foiling gear. 433 Euro (exc of VAT) for a fin...ridiculous, take the gear without the fin for example. I don't see the incentive for local open foiling owners to move over to one design. One design is better for weekend club racing however but at these prices it won't be. Its elitist and disappointing. Not as inspiring nor as simple nor affordable as the advertising makes out. What is the Australian pricing ? It would appear the same mistakes will be made to ensure this new class is as rare and as scarce as the RSX. Nothing is learned and history is repeated.

What you expect Starboard and Severne just to give them away ?.

Looks like the youth kit is the real winner - that's actually affordable club-race quality gear. The rest of the gear is pretty much in line with equivalent top line gear. The fins and big carbon boom are a bit pricey but I certainly could see non-racers buying the other bits just for freeride/freerace sailing. The 8.0 rig with an alu boom and alu foil is quite fair value for someone who will never mount an Olympic campaign.

If Starboard gets around to make a 1200/1500 wing that fits on that fuse for the alu foil, they would sell a lot of them.

Plus, those buying at msrp are effectively subsidizing the developing country teams who get a discount. If you believe everyone should be able to afford Olympic gear, then you have to be for this unless you have another idea of where those funds should be coming from.

I'm all for affordable gear but having seen what my custom guy goes through to build a board at an affordable price, one realizes good gear doesn't come cheap. If you want quality product that will last, it costs. Foil boards take a lot of abuse. If Starboard don't make them right, everyone loses.

Conversion of above package price to AUD, incl. VAT would be about $15,500. (not incl import, freight, etc).

This pricing also differs from what they had in their iFoil proposal to WS, that had a discounted package incl. travel bags for 6599 Euro ex VAT.

A quick look at the current RRP prices in AUS retail websites for a roughly equivalent new SB/Serverne "foil package" consisting of 2020 SB Carbon board, foil, HG2 9.0, and full carbon spars would cost $11,500 AUD inc GST (before any package discount).

Does that mean one could be paying a $4-5K premium to race an iFoil package instead of buying alternate new SB/Severne "foil package"?

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azuli said..
Conversion of above package price to AUD, incl. VAT would be about $15,500. (not incl import, freight, etc).

This pricing also differs from what they had in their iFoil proposal to WS, that had a discounted package incl. travel bags for 6599 Euro ex VAT.

A quick look at the current RRP prices in AUS retail websites for a roughly equivalent new SB/Serverne "foil package" consisting of 2020 SB Carbon board, foil, HG2 9.0, and full carbon spars would cost $11,500 AUD inc GST (before any package discount).

Does that mean one could be paying a $4-5K premium to race an iFoil package instead of buying alternate new SB/Severne "foil package"?

That is the retail price through a shop: 8,000 Euros or about AUS$ 13,000.The price when ordered through clubs and federation is 6,800 Euros or about AUS$ 11,000.All those price are before GST so $14,300 through a shop and $12,100 through a club. Same price as the RS:X for a gear that you can actually resale.By the way, I'm selling an RS:X rig and a fin if someone is interested... (be quick before I contact the maritime museum).