Hi all
I was at our clubs AGM the other night and the average age of the members is probably in the late 60's early 70's and we only have 2 teenagers currently crewing on boats with the rest of the crew being in their 50's and 60's and i said if we don t bring some younger people in to the club and a 10 years the club will cease to exist
Most clubs have a dinghy division but the problem we have down here is we don't have a grassy bank or beach to launch dinghy's from and we don't have a pick up boat or people available to man it and the conditions down here can change quite quickly
I put it to the members that the club could buy a keel boat with a motor and a radio around the 22 to 24 foot mark for around $6000 and put the two current teenagers on to it and see if they could find another two others who were interested in sailing and teach them to sail the boat, how to slip it and maintain it and either find a spot in the marina for it or put it on the yacht club mooring and let them be the custodians over it and race it in our twilight races and Saturday races
Even if 30 knots came through they wouldn't end up in the water and worse case they could drop the sails and motor back in if they had to and they would be in contact with the rest of the fleet and the starters box by radio if they needed a hand
The idea being if they had to be in charge of it and make the decisions in the race they might find it more of a challenge for them than just crewing on a boat with some old blokes
I figure with four on the boat there could be one steering, two on the head sail winches and another on the fore deck polling out the head sail and putting spinnakers up and they could rotate around the boat for each race so they all get experience in each position
If the idea worked and we had more teenagers than spots on the boat we could buy another boat and do the same with it
I figure by doing this we would be getting some younger people and their families involved in the club and as they got older have some more crew available for the larger boats
Also we could make the boat a mobile billboard and approach the local chandler to supply the stuff to maintain the boat in exchange for their logo on the boat and a story in the local paper about the companies that are supporting the project and helping the local kids learn new skills
The other thing we could do is make the boat available when it is not being raced for members who don't have their own boat to use for a small charge
I figure that even if the idea fails we could just stick the boat on Gumtree and sell it again
This boat is for sale down here at the moment and we are having a look over it tomorrow to see if it might be a suitable starting point https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/geeveston/sail-boats/yacht-compass-southerly/1195567795
I would be interested in hearing forum members thoughts on the idea or the boat
Regards Don
yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/j-boats-j-24-all-j24-class-features-plus-short-handed-extras/230905
that one may be worth a look as well ...... you may have trouble beating them if they were in that one !!
Something like a converted Etchell or Diamond would be ideal though a J24 would do. What you really need though is a couple of good looking young female teenagers to run a sail training clinic. This will attract other teenagers! Consider running evening lectures followed by some practical sailing and try and get across the fact that sailing is not necessarily an expensive hobby and that it can be a social gathering for young people. This is a lot easier with dinghies in a club than yachts, yachts seem to limit the social side a bit. Also if you had two or more boats the same you would automatically induce competition.
If you end up with a boat, you could talk to the local high school about adding sailing to the curriculum.
But then the issue of insurance pops up.
Wish you success and it is good that you are so forward looking.
gary
Select to expand quotegarymalmgren said..
If you end up with a boat, you could talk to the local high school about adding sailing to the curriculum.
But then the issue of insurance pops up.
Wish you success and it is good that you are so forward looking.
gary
^^
This one
Local high school does this in conjuction with the boat club,
Don't know the fine details though
Great idea and topic, however sorry to hijack it, if anyone has ideas how to get girlfriend/wife into sailing, please let everyone know!! 
As someone who's been involved with teaching sailing and trying to get younger people into boats (big and small) for some 25 years, I can only add the benefit of my experience.
Don, I get the impression that down in Southern Tassie, you're well outside Hobart. One problem that I've found in Northern NSW is that the kids leave town to go to Uni in the big cities. Basically you can put a lot of effort into them, but come the start of their HSC years, they disappear and never come back. So at least consider targeting those in their 20's and 30's who may have settled into the area for whatever reason (surfing is fairly common up here; but so is general lifestyle).
School sailing (which I have organised in the past on a scale that saw 120 kids rotate through the club in two shifts every Friday afternoon) is hard work. Often mid week and you have to go through all that "working with kids" stuff, some of which is pretty invasive of privacy. Plus schools will have rules surrounding the what's and who of school sport. Plus because the parents don't engage, longer term retention is very ordinary if not absent all together.
What is presently working very well for me is a group I run because we were having problems getting crews for our 15 ft twin wire skiffs. So I advertised at the small local uni for anyone who wanted to learn to crew them; free lessons and crew positions available. That spread by word of mouth and our Facebook page to the local surfer community and then others. It took a while to take off, but our fleet of these boats has expanded from two to six, I have a surplus of crew, am close to having a surplus of skippers and are now looking for more boats.
After a couple of seasons they came back with the comment, "we know what to do but not why" so I introduced a winter theory course which started at the basics but went deeply into tactics, aerodynamics, hydrodynamics and weather prediction ( a lot based on simplifying Frank Bethwaite's books)
The typical demographic was a single woman around 30, but is now starting to move out to include mothers in their late 30's (the latter often coming back to sailing after some sort of introduction in their youth). Why women, I don't know, but they are a good weight and make good crews, so I'm not complaining.
When I owned a 35ft yacht, I expanded the program to include that and it too was popular. Apart from cruising and racing, I ran one day coastal navigation and boat engineering days to give an intellectual framework to what they were doing. I sold the yacht because it wasn't getting enough use mid week (because weekends were spent skiff sailing). But we did take it up for Hamilton Island Race Week one year with some of the trainees.
Here's the Facebook page (which includes the HIRW story towards the bottom). www.facebook.com/SVs-Mr-Bond-The-Ballina-Skiff-Sail-Training-Group-110226546310465 You don't need to log on or even be a member to view it.
I have written my lectures up as notes and I have work papers for the navigation and engineering courses if you'd like anything.
Bottom line is that it has changed the demographics of our club from the usual 60's age to something much more varied.
Select to expand quoteTamble said..
As someone who's been involved with teaching sailing and trying to get younger people into boats (big and small) for some 25 years, I can only add the benefit of my experience.
Don, I get the impression that down in Southern Tassie, you're well outside Hobart. One problem that I've found in Northern NSW is that the kids leave town to go to Uni in the big cities. Basically you can put a lot of effort into them, but come the start of their HSC years, they disappear and never come back. So at least consider targeting those in their 20's and 30's who may have settled into the area for whatever reason (surfing is fairly common up here; but so is general lifestyle).
School sailing (which I have organised in the past on a scale that saw 120 kids rotate through the club in two shifts every Friday afternoon) is hard work. Often mid week and you have to go through all that "working with kids" stuff, some of which is pretty invasive of privacy. Plus schools will have rules surrounding the what's and who of school sport. Plus because the parents don't engage, longer term retention is very ordinary if not absent all together.
What is presently working very well for me is a group I run because we were having problems getting crews for our 15 ft twin wire skiffs. So I advertised at the small local uni for anyone who wanted to learn to crew them; free lessons and crew positions available. That spread by word of mouth and our Facebook page to the local surfer community and then others. It took a while to take off, but our fleet of these boats has expanded from two to five, I have a surplus of crew, am close to having a surplus of skippers and are now looking for more boats.
After a couple of seasons they came back with the comment, "we know what to do but not why" so I introduced a winter theory course which started at the basics but went deeply into tactics, aerodynamics, hydrodynamics and weather prediction ( a lot based on simplifying Frank Bethwaite's books)
The typical demographic was a single woman around 30, but is now starting to move out to include mothers in their late 30's (the latter often coming back to sailing after some sort of introduction in their youth). Why women, I don't know, but they are a good weight and make good crews, so I'm not complaining.
When I owned a 35ft yacht, I expanded the program to include that and it too was popular. Apart from cruising and racing, I ran one day coastal navigation and boat engineering days to give an intellectual framework to what they were doing. I sold the yacht because it wasn't getting enough use mid week (because weekends were spent skiff sailing). But we did take it up for Hamilton Island Race Week one year with some of the trainees.
Here's the Facebook page (which includes the HIRW story towards the bottom). www.facebook.com/SVs-Mr-Bond-The-Ballina-Skiff-Sail-Training-Group-110226546310465 You don't need to log on or even be a member to view it.
I have written my lectures up as notes and I have work papers for the navigation and engineering courses if you'd like anything.
Bottom line is that it has changed the demographics of our club from the usual 60's age to something much more varied.
That's a great post Tamble.
Cool fb page too!
Select to expand quoteCabron said..
Great idea and topic, however sorry to hijack it, if anyone has ideas how to get girlfriend/wife into sailing, please let everyone know!!
You are a lucky man.
Just tell her you are going sailing.
The world's your oyster.
It is bigger than your club.
I am a Year advisor at my high school. We did some interviews with our 16 year old students. About 3/4 are doing 10-14 hours of work per week on top of school. And it is casual work, where they are expected to say yes to shifts or not get any more - Saturdays, Sundays, school night we call you whenever we want, and you say yes.
And then there is the fact that teens want more than just sailing. My two sons are both good sailors, but they don't own boats or race any more - they did, but now they do things that require less mucking around and borrow the family boats if required. Stupid OHS and lawyers have helped to make it harder to just have a go, I need third party to go racing, why isn't this just part of the club membership? Every little extra impediment we put on ownership is another factor reducing participation.
Why would teenagers and 20-30 year olds get heavily into sailing? They will be racing against a small section who get government sponsorship to sail, who are coached intensely and who get to race against the best in the world. This is a relatively new problem - the hollowing out of the the mid to the bottom of the fleet. You can't be a full time uni student and be the best Australian Laser sailor any more. But the mid to bottom of the fleet is what makes sailing fun - at each presentation it is really the class stalwarts who never get a medal who deserve the biggest praise - not the winners.
So my advice is go for the 50 year olds - their kids have left home and they don't have to do the soccer/football run. Be very nice to women, so that they sail too and hope that sailing gets dropped from the Olympics so that we can go back to good old days when Australia had few Olympic champions but a stellar dinghy scene.
And remember that it is still fun anyway. We may look back on the boom, from 1960 to 1990ish and say, those were the days but what a ride and what a change in boats and sailing styles. From 4 man 18s to winged assys, sailboarding, from planked yachts to composites. The change in that time was amazing and is certainly not happening now. That is fine, but looking back, it was a whirlwind of innovation that caused a lot of excitement.
Select to expand quoteKankama said..
It is bigger than your club.
Why would teenagers and 20-30 year olds get heavily into sailing? They will be racing against a small section who get government sponsorship to sail, who are coached intensely and who get to race against the best in the world. This is a relatively new problem - the hollowing out of the the mid to the bottom of the fleet. You can't be a full time uni student and be the best Australian Laser sailor any more. But the mid to bottom of the fleet is what makes sailing fun - at each presentation it is really the class stalwarts who never get a medal who deserve the biggest praise - not the winners.
We are on the same page on that issue.
In junior sailing I always tried to keep the kids away from the toxic development classes. I strongly object to SA pushing the optimist as the club basic trainer. It is a really bad selection for so many reasons. But Sabots and MJ's are just as bad. But sometimes parents just will not understand the implications of going down that path. So many kids I know got sucked into Olympic development style programs just o end up getting spat out as cannon fodder for the few who make it. Few of them still sail.
It's also why we sail the 15's instead of the 49er or 49FX (especially the latter which is comparable). The standard in the 15's is high (as shown by some of the sailors in the class who also sail international classes), but you can win in them without spending all year on an international circuit and buying a new boat every second year. And you can use them to teach newcomers to sailing.
But the bottom line is you can get them passionate; especially as I'm presently finding out with the younger adult category.
our club is the same, average age 60+, with around 200 members.
Of those, 100 are full membership with boats, the remainder are past members.
Of those full members, 20 percent would be ?ctive' members who are on, or have been on the committee, and really keep the place running, then of those, less than 5 (myself included), are this side of 50.
Ive been secretary for 7 years, and have resigned due to still working full time, but are still on the committee.
Don I think to ensure your club still runs, as others have said, unfortunately getting kids into sailing might not be the best focus.
We've found there are plenty of owners out there who want a boat, but few have the time/commitment or willingness to help keep a small club going.
Plus now with so much legislation, insurance, directors liability, dealing with Parks, the councils etc, many of the main rolese have turned into full time positions.
School is the other issue, eg. my 2 girls dont get seen much anymore, one has just completed an optometry degree, and the other is doing year 11 and 12. Any time they have had spare has been in hours here and there, not like a day that we used to go sailing.
Not just sailing
www.smh.com.au/sport/cricket/we-are-bleeding-every-year-how-the-cricket-crisis-is-affecting-the-grassroots-20190720-p5293d.html
Select to expand quote
Interesting that they have the same problem with elite programs stripping and ultimately undermining the clubs that ultimately support the sport and of an administration that seems remote from the clubs and prone to damaging them as the national administrators pursue KPI's that are removed from the grass roots issues of building clubs.
One example I'd cite is the way AS has basically pushed learn to sail to become an essentially professionally run thing, in the process undermining so many club volunteer run LTS programs that introduced thousands to sailing.
Now any training program for trainers that AS run is fully of administrative topics, which basically amount to (if you'll excuse my cynical description) "how to make sure the AS administrators in charge of LTS meet their financial KPI's"
And the problem with professional trainers is that they don't really have the interests of the clubs to heart, even if they work within them. After all, a professional doesn't build a practice by telling an LTS graduate "great, now go sailing with the club". Rather the professional's interest is to sell the trainee into the next level of training. Indeed, pushing them towards the clubs is likely just to lose the professional business.
does anyone one know if sail training students have to be members of Australian sailing to be covered by insurance ? or would the clubs pubic liability do the job ?
Yes you have to be a member of AS to be covered by their insurance. Plus not sailing in an event organised by a club not registered with AS.
Something that happens to someone who is independently sailing on a yacht participating in a club event is unlikely to fall under the club's insurance. The club's insurance (unlike the AS insurance) only covers the club against negligence the club commits - as long as it doesn't fall within some exclusion; and things that happen on a boat usually is within an exclusion, since the boat's insurance is meant to cover that.
But any boat insurance is also based on negligence. So again doesn't really provide broad cover against general injuries.
Select to expand quoteTamble said..
Yes you have to be a member of AS to be covered by their insurance. Plus not sailing in an event organised by a club not registered with AS.
Something that happens to someone who is independently sailing on a yacht participating in a club event is unlikely to fall under the club's insurance. The club's insurance (unlike the AS insurance) only covers the club against negligence the club commits - as long as it doesn't fall within some exclusion; and things that happen on a boat usually is within an exclusion, since the boat's insurance is meant to cover that.
But any boat insurance is also based on negligence. So again doesn't really provide broad cover against general injuries.
Thanks Tamble , So, if some high school students participate in sail training run by the club in club owned dingys they would need to be members of the club and hence members of AS ? or is there some other way around that ?
It seems not reasonable to to expect a student to become a club member just to do occasional training sessions , what do you think ?
Select to expand quoteSandS said..
Thanks Tamble , So, if some high school students participate in sail training run by the club in club owned dingys they would need to be members of the club and hence members of AS ? or is there some other way around that ?
It seems not reasonable to to expect a student to become a club member just to do occasional training sessions , what do you think ?
There's no way around it that I know of.
But don't be too complacent about the value of the insurance. It's limited in its scope to death or permanent disablement (as I recall) with an extension for broken bones and the dollars are measured rather than lifestyle saving. But helps with medical bills and better than nothing.
But I've always believed you should ensure they become members for more than that reason. To my mind it's a way of having both them and their parents buy into the club. That of itself, apart from anything else, reduces a little the risk parents will over react to an accidental injury. But learning to be "part of the club" is in any case what it is all about.
I, and may other sail trainers, always told parents that "sailing is not a drop off sport".
I'll be more specific on who's covered.
Here's an extract from the AS website
"Australian Sailing members
This Insurance program provides benefits to registered members of Australian Sailing Affiliated Clubs who, through injury or accident, incur financial loss and who otherwise have not received assistance.Automatic Cover
Cover is Automatic for any financial member of an Australian Sailing Affiliated Club and for participants of an accredited Australian Sailing course when registered in the national database."
See www.networksteadfast.com.au/industries-and-associations/sailing/personal-injury-australian-sailing-members-insurance/
I suppose I was assuming from Donk's post we weren't dealing with an accredited AS course.
Select to expand quoteTamble said..SandS said..
Thanks Tamble , So, if some high school students participate in sail training run by the club in club owned dingys they would need to be members of the club and hence members of AS ? or is there some other way around that ?
It seems not reasonable to to expect a student to become a club member just to do occasional training sessions , what do you think ?
There's no way around it that I know of.
But don't be too complacent about the value of the insurance. It's limited in its scope to death or permanent disablement (as I recall) with an extension for broken bones and the dollars are measured rather than lifestyle saving. But helps with medical bills and better than nothing.
But I've always believed you should ensure they become members for more than that reason. To my mind it's a way of having both them and their parents buy into the club. That of itself, apart from anything else, reduces a little the risk parents will over react to an accidental injury. But learning to be "part of the club" is in any case what it is all about.
I, and may other sail trainers, always told parents that "sailing is not a drop off sport".
This situation is a barrier to clubs trying to get people interested in sailing and anyone wanting to try sailing and become involved in sailing . No wonder the sport is failing.
For a long time I fought against the way AS wanted to over control and dictate the whole learn to sail thing; especially making it done in a way that was completely different from the approach of most NSW clubs. As evident from my post above, i think it has done a lot to undermine clubs. I've given up and have now lost interest in organizing a general LTS course (but will be a helper if others take the lead). With the skiff training I can be much more selective on who I take on and only deal with adults.
I don't know the insurance position is all that surprising. Somehow they have to have a black and white definition of who's covered. [I think their exclusion of AS registered sailors participating in events organised by a non-affiliated club is more reprehensible].
In NSW we have/had a law that says you can't sue about a risk you were aware of. So we have a "risk notice" that can cover the obvious ones. As a lawyer I was aware of this possibility and 20 years ago drew up one for my Sydney club and passed it around the F11 association. It was then - with some (I believe often inappropriate) modification adopted by the Maritime Authority as a condition of the event licence for all clubs. I got permission to include back in some of the things they had omitted (by them - or the club that passed it to them - concentrating too much on offshore sailing). But it was always unclear to me how that worked when dealing with kids. Another reason I prefer to deal with adults.
Select to expand quote
In NSW we have/had a law that says you can't sue about a risk you were aware of. So we have a "risk notice" that can cover the obvious ones. As a lawyer I was aware of this possibility and 20 years ago drew up one for my Sydney club and passed it around the F11 association. It was then - with some (I believe often inappropriate) modification adopted by the Maritime Authority as a condition of the event licence for all clubs. I got permission to include back in some of the things they had omitted (by them - or the club that passed it to them - concentrating too much on offshore sailing). But it was always unclear to me how that worked when dealing with kids. Another reason I prefer to deal with adults.
do you know if that type of law exists also in Victoria?
We have all type of insurances to help cover our slipway and yard operations, but it would help if we could also provide an additional degree of protection by use of a risk notice.
thanks
Here's a link to the legislation. www5.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/cla2002161/s5m.html
It might offer you some goggle suggestions for other states.
However, it is for a recreational activity. I suspect slipway operations as a work site would come under more onerous OHS type legislation (and I seem to recall - without anything other than newspaper type reports to support it - that Victoria is one of the most onerous)
Hi all
Thanks for the replies and information so far and my apologies for not getting back sooner but we have had some internet issues
I have read all of the replies and I don't think it will be a simple progress but I would still like to give it a go to get some younger people and their family's involved keep the club going in the future
We have looked a a couple of boats including a Compass Southerly and a Swanson 27 but both had some things about them that I didn't think were what we were looking for
My mate is keen on the J24 that Sands posted the link to but i have not sailed one and I wonder how suitable it would be for a group of inexperienced teenagers if it started to blow a bit
Any thoughts on the J24 as a suitable boat would be appreciated
Regards Don
sorry Don for the drift.
So the club would need to cover maintenance, slipping, insurance etc and upkeep?
Select to expand quotecrustysailor said..
sorry Don for the drift.
So the club would need to cover maintenance, slipping, insurance etc and upkeep?
Hi Crusty
The dear would be to teach the crew how to slip it on the yacht club slip and they would do the anti fouling and maintenance and approach the local chandler and see if we can get them to come onboard with the maintenance materials at a reduced cost in exchange for their name on the boat and the same deal with the insurance
We have approached a couple of companies and discussed this and so far the feedback has been positive
Regards Don
