"Scooped" vs. flat pocket Kitefoil board

Hi everyone,

I have been riding my 4'6" drawftcraft for several months now and think it is time to transition to something smaller, like a pocket style board in the 120-130cm range. I am 180lbs/80kg, 6' tall, intermediate rider foiling primarily on flat/choppy waters and do a little swell riding.

I've shopped around and found that the biggest difference between brands was primarily in the rocker, with either "flat" boards (duotone pace, F-one pocket) or heavily scooped ones (North Scoop, Groove wave and even Kahana shapes to some extent).

I was wondering if you guys could share your experience and discuss the advantages and drawbacks between flat or scooped pocket boards. One difference I have observed in small scooped boards is the front foot sitting slightly higher relative to the back foot? Does this provide more control? Does it allow for smoother transitions or make things actually harder?

Thanks!

Rocker definitely. Yes, you want your front foot a bit higher, especially when you're riding down/dropping into swell or waves. It's much more stable and comfortable, as well as handling touch-downs better.

I wouldn't call 120cm a pocket board these days. Surely a pocket board is only a few inches longer than your stance. I ride two boards regularly and the 86cm one (paired with Lift 150) feels like a pocket board while the 100cm one gives me more area when starting with a smaller foil (original Zeeko Carver), and is, to my thinking, barely in the "pocket" category.

If you're riding strapless, the less volume the better. Ideally it barely floats - makes for faster hands-free waterstarts.

Once you have ridden a pocket board with plenty of rocker you won't go back to a flat board. Imagine never nose diving during a touchdown ever again.

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Mokuleia said..
Thanks all for your replies. I'm planning actually to build this board my self. The attached template is essentially a mix between Moses' T38 (120cm x 45cm) with the rocker of the North's Scoop (8cm). I opted for 4cm thick. Could go a little thinner, but want to install tracks (future fins 10 3/4 boxes), so can't go too thin. What do you guys think of it? Should I add little more rocker? Would wider (48 cm) be more comfortable and easier for transitions?

With futures you can go 25mm. You can also use 20mm PVC + a narrow sheet of 5 or 10mm glued to the bottom. I have done it and it works great.

I am currently making a 20mm one. I have shaved the bottom of the futures track (3mm) which is leaving the tacks exposed on the deck before lamination.

Where are you based?

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Livit said..

With futures you can go 25mm. You can also use 20mm PVC + a narrow sheet of 5 or 10mm glued to the bottom. I have done it and it works great.

I am currently making a 20mm one. I have shaved the bottom of the futures track (3mm) which is leaving the tacks exposed on the deck before lamination.

Where are you based?

Are you planning on using HD foam for the Future Fins tracks or simply rely on the deck contacting the back of box for extra reinforcement?

I am located in Honolulu, Hawaii.

Thanks Mokuleia, not familiar with this software but from what you are saying it would help :-)

My email is swavek.zykus@gmail.com

Cheers

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Mokuleia said..

Livit said..

With futures you can go 25mm. You can also use 20mm PVC + a narrow sheet of 5 or 10mm glued to the bottom. I have done it and it works great.

I am currently making a 20mm one. I have shaved the bottom of the futures track (3mm) which is leaving the tacks exposed on the deck before lamination.

Where are you based?

Are you planning on using HD foam for the Future Fins tracks or simply rely on the deck contacting the back of box for extra reinforcement?

I am located in Honolulu, Hawaii.

The blank is HD foam.

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Mokuleia said..

The blank is HD foam.

Any density you would recommend for this? Any experience with construction XPS foam?

At this thickness, can you bend the HD blank during lamination to get the rocker or do you hot wire cut it?

I use 60kg and 80kg. Both work fine.

A hot wire won't go through that foam. You can thermo form it with a heater against a rocker template.

I have made a few with XPS but I don't think I'll use it again. They have a tendency to delaminate. If you take good care of your board it ok but things like leaving it in hard sun for a bit will make the skin pop for sure. I haven't had any major delams, just random spots up to 10cm in diameter.

If you use XPS, you still have to put a HD foam insert. I made a strapless board without once just to see how light I could go. The board lasted about 70 sessions until it snapped just in front of the tracks. From the first time out, I could hear some faint cracking noise. It settled after a few times out so I am guessing it deteriorated internally gradually until the days it snapped. There was no external sign of failure prior to this.

I ride both axis tray 94 (scoop) & Nang 100 (not much).

Honestly it's not a huge factor like Horey says you adjust either way.

Personally I slightly favour the scoop in swell it gives a little extra confidence when you're feeling like you're just barely in control and riding downhill contemplating a sharp pull up at the bottom. However in reality I tripped over the nose quite often when first riding a pocket board and almost never now in any conditions.

I slightly prefer flatter in flat water, more even stance and the flatter board seems easier to start sometimes when underpowered you need to ride the pocket board flat underwater as if you're on the surface while you get kite powered up again. Hard to describe but it's a technique that seems to work for me. Scoop board won't ride evenly underwater.

OK guys, little update on the project. I finally got some pre-cut 2pcf EPS from a local manufacturer. The kitefoil board is done with a 1" thick blank. Its is based on Naish's Hover 112 (that is 44"). Fastest board I have ever shaped. Very simple outline, no bottom contours, just slight chined rails. I added a 5pcf track insert for extra strength. Got so much foam, I figured I could also make a new 4'6" foil prone board as well using one of the 4" thick blank I got ;-)



I kind of miscalculated the routing of the future tracks and cut through the board. Ended sanded the boxes a bit, not a big deal. As a matter of fact, this will allow to contact the tracks to the deck, which should make for a stronger bond.



Next step is vacuum lamination of the bottom first using 2 layers of 6oz carbon. The board will be placed on an adjustable rocker table and loaded with some weights. Then, 2 layers of 6oz carbon for the deck, hoat-coat, sanding...Stay tuned!

OK folks, the board is done and I have been riding it 5-7 times already (trade winds finally came back in Hawaii ;-) Overall I am super happy with the board. It is such an upgrade compared to my 4'6" dwarfcraft slingshot-style board. At 44" and 2.3kg, this little board is a pleasure to ride.




PROS:
- Water-starts are surprisingly easy, as long as you pop the board up quickly to be on the foil.
- Not having to hold the board on the side (hand-free water-start) is so nice.
- Being thin and light, I feel like I can recover better when the foil is breaching compared to bigger/thicker boards.
- Not sure if it is my imagination, but I seems that I feel more the foil behavior with this light/thin board, like when travelling though some turbulence.
- Having the foil track is great, but I think I will be placing the mast all the way back from now on, except if I switch to a smaller front wing in the future.

CONS:
- After few sessions, I already feel that I could have gone a good 5-10 inches shorter ;-)
- Although the title of this thread was "flat vs. scooped", I ended up in the middle with about 6.5cm of rocker. Going down an unbroken wave can be tricky when the swell period is short (wind swells). Should have followed you guys advises and add more scoop, like 10cm total. I will probably go directly to a Kanaha-style shape next time.

In any case, I would highly recommend to those on the fence to try riding small/thin/light boards, they are a real pleasure to foil with and so responsive!

Cheers, Moku

A few I have build recently..
Let me know if you want one..

Hi Mokuleia..
Boards all have future tracks for the mast attachment.
I am using high density PVC foam as a core, either 15 or 20mm thick and then rise the track section to accommodate the tracks.

Yes the brown boards have a cork top that is exposed and used as a traction pad..

Nice! Is extruded aluminum frame a rocket table? What's is your preferred method to curve your blanks. I tried clamps and weight during vacuum lamination but must admit it tends to deform the blank...